Change Drag and Drop default setting

Brainstorm
1

Please change the default setting when dragging files or folders from “Always ask what to do” to “Move if on the same device”:

Current

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My request

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The rationale is the same as given in this thread: Suggestion: Option to make ‘Move’ the default drag‑and‑drop action in Dolphin

Namely:

  • Improves efficiency for users who primarily move files rather than copy them.
  • Reduces repetitive use of modifier keys.
  • Aligns with user expectations from other file managers (e.g., Windows Explorer).

The difference between my suggestion and Endo’s suggestion is that I would like to see this implemented as the default setting in Plasma, while Endo was merely asking for an option to choose this setting.

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Overall, the idea is that KDE Plasma should ‘do it right’ but allow you to change to your ‘insane default’ if you wish… but at your own risk, not change our defaults to suit you…

There are clear instructions to explain that if you wish to MOVE, then you should hold Shift (the same applies to Delete - it requires a confirmation because it is not a safe operation), then you use Ctrl to force copy, or both to create a symlink.

If you don’t like that, then select the ‘Move’ option…

The ‘move by default’ argument misunderstands the basic principles of file management. Configuration is the better solution.

The idea of ‘reducing repeated use’ of keys is a really interesting one, as typing this, I have already hit my e key at least 78 times already.

Thankfully, my key switch should survive another 55,000,000 presses and my keycaps show no noticeable wear after 3 years (so far) of heavy use.

Impressively, my fingers - after 60 years of heavy use - also show no signs of quitting just yet, though they are starting to show some slight degradation, it is not remotely affecting my ability to use the modifier keys which sit very conveniently on the heel of my left hand… so easily accessible by my left pinky and ring fingers.

So your main points:

Improves efficiency for users who primarily move files rather than copy them.

Interesting qualifier - only for users who primarily move files rather than copy them. Actually, I quite frequently also link files ( for example, linking the Transistor configuration files with the corresponding folder for the Flatpak installation).

Again, oversimplifying the issue to support your personal preference/habit… ignoring that default ‘move’ actions can lead to disasterous mistakes. I remember selecting a bunch of photos and dragging them, but due to a low battery they got dropped… and you can imagine that dragging stuff with your eyes closed and dropping at random can be devastating, it could be an icon, or a folder, or anything (wheras just copying not so much).

Not so annoying if you were doing it deliberately with Shift held down.

Dragging a file to an external drive that can be disconnected can break your workflow and lead to the file being inaccessible, and finally:

Undo CtrlZ is not universal, it’s not reliable, and especially with large selections is a big problem… making your ‘default’ a real high-stakes gamble.

Reduces repetitive use of modifier keys.
This is a flawed premise - modifier keys are fundamental to all OS interactions, not a burden… and they offer MORE efficiency:

  • immediate visual feedback (changed cursor) before you drop a file - with a hard coded default, you won’t know until after you drop it… which can be too late.

  • Real efficiency is having choice and control; it doesn’t save me even a full second to hold down a key - but that is a small and very deliberate action which avoids mishaps.

  • KISS - Having a simple, predictable default (copy) and learning to use Ctrl/Shift keys to change that is simpler than forcing everyone to a ‘MOVE’ default, and then teaching them how to avoid it.

Aligns with user expectations from other file managers (e.g., Windows Explorer).

  • You are falling apart at the seams here - Windows Explorer does not always move by default, it entirely depends on the destination’s domain which is why it’s inconsistent and risky.
  • There is also a registry hack to change this, because Microsoft acknowledge that a single default doesn’t fit all systems and their actual default is truly wrong and only persists because users expect it.
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count me in as another vote for the current default.

i came from windows and had to adapt my workflow to get used to this new way of doing things (it’s been 2 yrs and i still have to think about it).

but that extra work pays off when you don’t accidentally drag or mis-click the destination and have no idea where the stuff went.

having to deal with the dialog box is good training for how to think about moving files in linux as opposed to windows, and if you want to avoid that just hold the shift key down so you know it will move the files.

for copy i still find myself using Copy the Paste from my old window habits, but using the ctrl key is much more intuitive, so it’s getting easier to break the old habits.

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So much this.
The option to change the behavior already exists if you like shooting yourself in the foot, having the default protect the user is just the sane decision.

I’d wager most linux users came from windows at some point, and of course it’s nice if everything works just the way you’re used to from over there, but there’s also always room for improvement. You might dislike the way KDE software handles drag and drop, but there’s a lot of people who appreciate it.
Also, no one would actively search for an option to change a behavior they’re already used to and might never come across the potentially better way.

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Haha yes, I remember being massively impressed that I could middle click to paste text that I didn’t even need to ‘copy’… but definitely a year or two of paper-cuts, or pain points, adapting to some new ways of doing things.

The same would now happen in reverse - when I want to do something on my son’s Windows laptop, I ask him to do it - because touching it, trying to use it, just hurts my brain.

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The ‘move by default’ argument misunderstands the basic principles of file management. Configuration is the better solution.

Which principles of file management does it misunderstand?

The idea of ‘reducing repeated use’ of keys is a really interesting one, as typing this, I have already hit my e key at least 78 times already.

The argument states “modifier keys”. The e key is not a modifier key.

Thankfully, my key switch should survive another 55,000,000 presses and my keycaps show no noticeable wear after 3 years (so far) of heavy use.

The argument is not about wear and tear of the hardware, but the inconvenience to the user.

Impressively, my fingers - after 60 years of heavy use - also show no signs of quitting just yet, though they are starting to show some slight degradation, it is not remotely affecting my ability to use the modifier keys which sit very conveniently on the heel of my left hand… so easily accessible by my left pinky and ring fingers.

Not having to press a key is more convenient than having to press a key.

Interesting qualifier - only for users who primarily move files rather than copy them.

I agree this particular argument could be worded better. Efficiency should improve for users moving files regardless of the amount of copying they are doing.

I remember selecting a bunch of photos and dragging them, but due to a low battery they got dropped… and you can imagine that dragging stuff with your eyes closed and dropping at random can be devastating

I can’t imagine dragging files with my eyes closed and I don’t see how moving stuff to the wrong location can be devastating.

Dragging a file to an external drive that can be disconnected can break your workflow and lead to the file being inaccessible

As the option clearly states: “Move if on the same device”
An external drive is not the “same device” and the context menu will pop up if you try to move files to one.

Undo CtrlZ is not universal, it’s not reliable, and especially with large selections is a big problem… making your ‘default’ a real high-stakes gamble.

Please elaborate. It has never failed me.

modifier keys are fundamental to all OS interactions, not a burden…

They are a burden if you are forced to use them in order to avoid needless context menus.

immediate visual feedback (changed cursor) before you drop a file - with a hard coded default, you won’t know until after you drop it…

The cursor looks the same when dragging files regardless of ‘Drag and Drop’ setting.

Real efficiency is having choice and control; it doesn’t save me even a full second to hold down a key - but that is a small and very deliberate action which avoids mishaps.

Then feel free to use the ‘Move if on the same device’ option and hold down shift every time you you move a file. The menu will pop up and save you from making mistakes.

KISS - Having a simple, predictable default

What’s simple and predictable is moving your files when you try to move them, not having a context menu pop up with a list of options.

Windows Explorer does not always move by default, it entirely depends on the destination’s domain which is why it’s inconsistent and risky.

The same exceptions apply to the suggested ‘Drag and Drop’ option, which is why it’s consistent and safe.

Microsoft acknowledge that […] their actual default is truly wrong and only persists because users expect it.

Do you have a source to back up that claim?

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that extra work pays off when you don’t accidentally drag or mis-click the destination and have no idea where the stuff went.

If you move stuff to the wrong place, you can simply return it to the previous destination with Ctrl+Z.

having to deal with the dialog box is good training for how to think about moving files in linux as opposed to windows

Using an OS should be intuitive and require minimal training.
I also don’t agree that there are major differences between Linux and Windows when it comes to moving files.

if you want to avoid that just hold the shift key down so you know it will move the files.

If you “just” want to hold the shift key down every single time you move a file, you can do it with the ‘Move if on the same device’ option enabled and the context menu will appear to prevent you from moving the file to the wrong location by accident.

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You might dislike the way KDE software handles drag and drop, but there’s a lot of people who appreciate it.

How many is “a lot” and how many does it take to justify keeping the current default?

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I go back on forth on this. Personally, what skyfishgoo said applies to me as well:

At a minimum, if we change this, we’d have to first fix the cursor how showing you visually whether a dragged file will be moved or will ask you what to do.

But I’m not sure I’m on board with changing the default.

3 Likes
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i think this overlooks one of the main differences between linux and windows, which is that linux (dolphin in particular) is more or less agnostic to the file system and where it’s located.

you want this approach for consistency and asking it do one thing if it’s a local folder and another thing if its a remote folder, goes against that approach.

you can certainly choose that option now, if it suits you…. but don’t expect such an opinionated and inconsistent approach to suit those who are used to the more consistent approach, nor should you expect that it become the default.

honestly never noticed those little badges before, but in plasma 5 at least they show up as

  • 🮰(+) for copy (holding the ctrl key)

  • 🮰(↱) for a symlink (holding shift+ctrl keys)

  • grab cursor for move (holding the shift key)

however if i just drag it, it will show the 🮰(+) badge as if i was going to copy the file even tho when i drop it the menu shows up asking me what to do… shouldn’t it not show any badge or cursor change if it’s going to prompt the user for what to do?

or maybe 🮰(?)

1 Like
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Oh, I just noticed that I never get a link icon, that’s a very nice insight (especially when it was I that brought it up without noticing the bugs in the cursor changes).

  1. Fix the cursor to show the :white_question_mark: badge when it’s going to ask
  2. Ensure we get a :link: icon when linking
  3. Discuss later on about ‘move by default on same device’ only when that’s fixed.

So yes, to make ‘Move by default’ a more robust choice this looks really positive!!

But I do still think that, for a default desktop, it’s better to have an annoying popup every time until the user makes a definitive choice.

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I’ve always used alt as symlink modifier and I could’ve sworn there used to be the correct icon when doing it, but I’m also always only getting the plus/copy icon on current versions.

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@skyfishgoo is sticking with Plasma 5 for now, so it looks like a regression - so hopefully there will be something of an overhaul, because this will be a great upgrade.

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you want this approach for consistency and asking it do one thing if it’s a local folder and another thing if its a remote folder, goes against that approach.

It’s not really about what I want or what I’m asking; it’s simply how this setting currently works.

you can certainly choose that option now, if it suits you….

I have, but I would prefer not to need to change 20 different settings every time I install Plasma when a handful of them (including this one) could be “sane” by default.

but don’t expect such an opinionated and inconsistent approach to suit those who are used to the more consistent approach

Likewise, you shouldn’t expect those who are suited to the opinionated and inconsistent approach to be suited by the inefficient and consistent approach.

nor should you expect that it become the default.

I’m not expecting anything, but I can hope.

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Didn’t we have this discussion just half a year ago?

In any case: I’m for keeping the default because it prevents mistakes and for that reason makes more sense for new users. And when I say new users I don’t mean for windows users, but people who are using a computer for the first time - and aren’t those the people who need sane defaults the most?

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Didn’t we have this discussion just half a year ago?

I don’t know. I’ve only been here for 5 months and I haven’t been able find a similar thread besides the one I linked to in the OP.

I’m for keeping the default because it prevents mistakes

If the purpose is to prevent mistakes, there should be a pop-up asking for confirmation for every action taken by the user: opening a program, closing a window, changing the wallpaper, etc.
Otherwise, it would be “inconsistent”.

and for that reason makes more sense for new users.

You learn by making mistakes.

And when I say new users I don’t mean for windows users, but people who are using a computer for the first time

I.e., users who are running Plasma and are using a computer for the first time. Even the former is a small minority. The demographic that meets both criteria is minuscule.
I don’t think Plasma should cater specifically to those people and I strongly doubt it does.

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Yes, the default is correct - but there’s definitely a case for fixing the CURSOR response…

Then whatever the ‘sane’ or ‘insane’ choice you make, it should behave more consistently.

There are a great many inconsistencies that we don’t notice every day…

For example, in my mind, if I select this text now and drag it to desktop, I know it’s coded to drop in a sticky note.

If I do the same in Dolphin, surely it should drop as a text file, right?

Just as you can select, copy, then right click dolphin, and paste (then prompted for a name for your text file).

Yet despite having the same ‘ADD’ cursor, it just fails.

So - baby steps, fix the cursor first and relax - nobody’s gonna change the default.

I think the pop-up menu is fine, and it might be discussed later whether to make ‘move as default in home domain’ could be made more accessible that way (maybe ‘edit behaviour’ as an extra option).

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That’s a nasty argument - it can’t fail, and sure - consistency is being bandied around here, where ‘context’ is also really important.

FWIW there was a time when I would click the window close on Firefox, not realising that I would simply LOSE those tabs… because it doesn’t quit the application and save those tabs in the session… I had to add an extension to preserve pinned tabs (they’d move to an existing instance of Firefox) to get past it, and now I reliably use the right commands to quit…

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If the purpose is to prevent mistakes, there should be a pop-up asking for confirmation for every action taken by the user: opening a program, closing a window, changing the wallpaper, etc.

Non-destructive actions don’t need confirmation, potentially destructive actions do - especially if the outcome might not be clear.

I.e., users who are running Plasma and are using a computer for the first time. Even the former is a small minority. The demographic that meets both criteria is minuscule.
I don’t think Plasma should cater specifically to those people and I strongly doubt it does.

I can understand both sides of the argument. But I’m for not endorsing behaviour only because thats what most people are used to and instead teach the best to newcomers. I grudgingly accept that row-staggered keyboards with qwerty-based layouts are the default because changing to something better is a huge step, but not for easy things like this.

I have, but I would prefer not to need to change 20 different settings every time I install Plasma when a handful of them (including this one) could be “sane” by default.

And I’m glad I don’t have to change this one. The easier way might be to copy ~/.config/k* to the new system.

But while we`re at it… Plasma really could use some easy way to transfer settings.

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Back-in-time takes snapshots (incrememental) such that, following hardware failure, it took me 1 hour to have the basic system up and running with 95% of my setup working perfectly, then some touches (like conky scripts) that needed adjusting to the new hardware took an extra day or two to iron out.

So yes, just that - export a package list and backup is all you need.

I keep my wallpapers and other ‘interesting stuff’ (like icons, cursors you can’t download any more) stored separately - if my system drive goes up in smoke, it’s trivial to restore it.

There are also tools like konsave - but once you start using it, you realise there are a lot of other things you need to include, so just incrementally backing up is the safest option.