I agree. I would also like to continue on this good base.
But not without forgeting this thread is just the tip of the iceberg of a serie of issues digital painter/designer/graphist saw coming with Wayland throught the years, and where many users invested time to provide feedback that were ignored or put in low priorities over the years. All of this to end in a proposal for Fedora 40 KDE where we were not part of the story at all. That’s why it is emotionaly very hard to take − for me too.
I’m glad to read everyone is helpful todays, it’s not too late before the deadline and I’ll also try my best to write with cold head.
I didn’t realize I was pinged in this thread; I was too busy.
I get the sincere feeling there’s a massive misunderstanding going on. Based on that, can all devs in this thread humour me and tell me what they think are the needs of digital artists, in particular, can you share pictures of the kind of hardware setup you think they have.
EDIT: I’ve been told someone is linking this elsewhere with ‘artists should reply about their devices’, I don’t need to know about artist devices, I need to know what devs think artists devices are, because there must be some very fundamental communication issues happening when the same issue has been discussed a gazillion times and it keeps coming up again and again.
Im a mostly Wayland user with displays that are well behaved and can use hardware control to adjust their color output so my needs tend to be simpler so that is my personal perspective on this topic. This change will have little effect on me as things currently stand except maybe the removal of VCGT use which has been suggested in the kwin issue posted in 1.
Now as for what I think are important things to have functional to have a least basic color use case by a graphic artist, photographer, or AV professional
VCGT upload and use and adjustment of the video card gamma in general. This is required when a display doesnt have adjustable RGB values/color temperature and if an ICC profile is made with a VCGT tag and that isnt used it completely invalidates the ICC profile making it useless. ICC profiles may not currently be useful for HDR but i dont believe their use and support shouldnt be ignored. Yes manipulating the gamma will result in a narrower gamut for the display but the colors being in excess of 2de+ and substantially off white/black point i think is a bit more of a concern so this needs to be addressed.
It will become impossible to proof prints for graphic artists if the color pipeline starts to manipulate color output in a way that isnt 100% predictable/knowable and allows for the application to work in common print formats such as CMYK and show on screen how a print will look like. The color pipeline needs to allow for applications to work with color models such as this to be even remotely usable for this use case.
Continuing for above support for multiple color spaces is needed not just in HDR but SDR. sRGB,Adobe RGB, CMYK, ProPhoto RGB, Rec 709, Rec2020, and DCI-P3 are the most necessary i believe to be usable by digital artists, photographers, and AV professionals. HDR is nice for those mastering for it but the a number of these fields wont be working in HDR simply due to the inherent inconsistency with output for HDR so the standard luminescence will likely stay in the 80cd/m2-200cd/m2 range which is well within the SDR territory.
This is just off the top of my head at this moment, but this is just the basics and really arent trivial matters even though theyre kinda the minimum. I would be absolutely stunned if this stuff got implemented any time very soon as i dont see this being in a good working state for at least 1-2yrs unless we get some people who want to really just crack into this with a force unseen before.
Alright, so that’s about the color management part, what about the input device part? What kind of device/needs do you think are there?
Edit: sorry, echoa, I didn’t realize you were an artists yourself. I’m trying to figure out if the devs who are not artists know what kind of setups we’re dealing with here, because there’s some confusing terminology there.
I wish I could even remotely answer this but i hope maybe we can have some people say specifically what their needs to input devices are besides just wanting the X11 stuff to work on wayland.
I buy my input devices specifically for their linux support so in my case my Huion products just work OOTB on wayland and I havent had any issues but I dont tend to adjust my pen display much besides color management.
Suggestions for those who might have input on this
Wanting a Driver to work on wayland is outside the scope of this discussion i think. the maintainer of the driver needs to address that.
You need to say specifically what it is you need to adjust for that input device, be specific and not generic you need to describe your use case in detail to make sense. If you can give specifics for use cases then the necessary GUI elements can be accommodated more readily.
Sorry I was more replying in general to the topic and trying to get some hopefully helpful information in the thread to move things along. I wouldnt say Im an artist as much as a color enthusiast of a sort and Im also far too lazy to be a dev .
I’d still like others to respond with what kind of hardware they think is being used, and then tomorrow (when I’m more awake) I’ll go over each feature in the current wacom kcm and why it exists.
Sorry, to join in here, David and Nate. I actually couldn’t care less about this discussion concerning Fedora because I’m on FreeBSD and wayland is beyond of being any use on *BSD.
Ok, David is right here, the post anon88800485 was actually reacting on, and which I have also read myself this morning just before I went off to work, was indeed deleted.
How easy do you think this is? I have a working plasma 6 kdesrc-build. I have no problem spending time working on whatever is helpful. But I have basically no QT/QML experience and limited programming experience.
If you think I can help out in any way (programming, testing, debugging etc…) let me know.
She likely isnt using any of what is missing yes, if she had been the issue of colord-kde/kded killing colord upon logging into a wayland session with kded5[]: colord: X11 not detect disabling wouldve been an obvious one. Im not aware of anything currently that allows for color management between camera, display, printer,scanners, and editors or image viewers besides colord and if youre not soft proofing, calibrating a printer or scanner, etc. you wouldnt notice with a relatively well behaved display along with using mostly no color management features. That said i do know some artists who work exclusively in the digital realm and dont know anything about Color Management as they dont print,etc. and like many people simply trust the display is doing things right (very few do ootb)
Ok, that isn’t as bad as I thought it’d be, though I find it odd that ‘monitor’ is not a separate item, especially because the combo of ‘monitor+graphic tablet’ vs ‘monitor with integrated graphics tablet’ is why a number of the screen mapping features exist.
That said, if you are listing ‘colorimeter’ and ‘callibrated as needed’, and Echoa says that colord is being shutdown upon login, then apparantly no one has actually tried using the colorimeter on wayland. Which I think might be the core issue: No one seems to be actually take ownership of the task ‘do artists focused features work in wayland?’, checking if they can actually run the colorimeter and setup the graphics tablet say, once a year and give a report of whether it is possible.
Because artists already do that, @David_Revoy writes a ton of blogposts about getting hardware to run on Linux, this one in particular about setting up Fedora Linux. You can check the displaycal tag on pixls.us if you wanna know how that is supossed to work. Hell, I don’t even need to list what each toggle in the tablet kcm is for, because they’re just gui elements for xsetwacom, and the Arch wiki has a list of problems and their solutions by using xsetwacom (which might help you visualize why one of the pain points is the loss of xsetwacom). It also has one on icc profiles.
And like, because no one is taking responsibility, this might be like, the third, fourth time I share some of these links, because no one is actually storing them anywhere.
I suspect that part of this is a hardware availability issue. I’d be happy to test colorimeter support on Wayland and look into that colord issue, but I don’t have a colorimeter and I don’t know anyone with one, and they seem to be rather expensive so I’m not likely to buy one just for this purpose. But I do use a 2-in-1 laptop (with a pen!) as my daily driver, and my wife has a standalone Wacom tablet, so I can test with these devices.
On the software side, I’ll go through those links, so they were very helpful, thanks!
From what I can tell the ICC profile thing should mostly work already, but apparently colord gets killed on login in the Plasma Wayland session and this prevents what should be working from actually working? I can investigate that.
I asked my wife about pen pressure and she told me that she just lives with the default pressure curve and didn’t even realize it could be customized on X11! It looks like our Wayland Drawing Tablet KCM is simply lacking this feature. So we’ll need to implement that. Hopefully the UX will end up much better than a login script running xsetwacom a bunch of times.
If youre looking for less expensive test hardware the Xrite ColorMunki Display and Calibrate Display SL are fairly inexpensive and can do most any testing needed but I suppose I’m not sure what’s considered expensive.
Used they’re between 50-170$ USD and they use glass sensors so they don’t degrade in the same way some others do and have only firmware limitations compared to the more expensive models.
ICC profiles with a VCGT can load the VCGT tag if colord is run on Wayland but the rest of the profile is useless for now. This is helpful for display gamma at the moment but kwin folks are suggesting removing that functionality during the work towards actual CM. I suppose it would be a good idea to see what the plan is going to be in that regards before testing VCGT loading.
Colormgr works on Wayland WHAAAAAAT? Since when? I’m trying this as soon as I’m done with work this morning.
Also I have installed KDE on a variety of machines and distros this past couple of months & very rarely have I had color management in settings & it never worked if it was there (not on Xorg).
Only VCGT gets applied not the actual corrections. You can’t get managed output on Wayland except a 1D lut for greyscale if your ICC profile contains it.
You just need to use colormgr, xiccd doesn’t work which is expected.
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It looks like our Wayland Drawing Tablet KCM is simply lacking this feature. So we’ll need to implement that. Hopefully the UX will end up much better than a login script running 