Proposal: Make Move-By-Default actually default

Brainstorm
1

Inspired by the idea of the Zero-Clicks Initiative, similar to the 15-Minute-Bug Initiative, I came up with the following proposal:

Situation

Anecdotally, one of the biggest issues new users have is, that when attempting to drag and drop a file, the “Move/Copy/Link?” Dialogue pops up.
After 18 years, this got finally made a user choice to “Move-By-Default” (only the same device).

This change was insanely well received and widely reported.

However, after this setting was made available, it was not made default on new installs.
This is what I propose.

Reasoning

If we look at the Human Interface Guidelines, we find the section Simple By Default.
Some quotes:

  • Be welcoming, not demanding or baffling
  • Future experts begin as novices; don’t scare them away before they find your app’s powerful features!
  • Don’t waste the user’s time by requiring them to […] make a decision about something they don’t understand yet.
  • Optimize default settings for new users unfamiliar with the app, and consider what kind of expectations they’ll be bringing along so you can cater to them. Seek inspiration from other apps with similar functionality.
  • Optimize common workflows

Arguably, new users expect Drag-And-Drop to move files in the filesystem. This is what most other file managers implement and this is what they expect.

Even more so: This change was welcomed by a large amount of old-school KDE fans, not just newbies. They complain that changing it is cumbersome (buried in the settings).

So with both a existing user base in mind, that is lowkey alienated by the fact that this feature took 18 years to be implemented (check the Bugzilla…), and with new users that expect a simple to use desktop experience, we should make this setting default.

Discussion

  • What are your thoughts on this? How would you feel about this feature becoming default?
  • Where would be the proper place to file the proposal? Where is the code that sets the default?
4 Likes
2

i vote yes.

move should be the default when dragging an icon from one folder to another in the file manager (or to the desktop, which is also a folder).

2 Likes
3

It’s flat out dangerous, if its something large and you get a power outage all the data is lost. I know people forget but some places it happens more then one would think. If anything with the new installer screen it should be a checkbox in the keyboard? section or somewhere.

5 Likes
4

I agree with this. It looks really weird to have a popup menu when dragging and dropping files. For example, Windows hides some advanced options on shift. I think it’s OK to move files by default, but the popup menu appears when you hold shift while dragging and dropping.

Most operating systems should default to move operation. Dolphin should also do this to reduce inconsistencies with other operating systems.

Can I include this post under the zero-clicks proposal? I’d like to be able to see these “sub-proposals” in one place.

2 Likes
5

On the same filesystem not so much.

I think the argument here is whether to have a default instead of a chooser. As for the default, then another setting.

I vote for copy by default, and then Ctrl could get a menu of options, and SHIFT should move.

I don’t want to be thinking about how the destination is actually mounted…

So then a tooltip/statusbar hint (Shift to move, Ctrl for menu) and default Copy (safe and consistent).

But then a Windows setting to allow folks to go with Copy for local, Move for others.

Context awareness is key here - and remember, we don’t all use Windows; I find it uncomfortable and counter intuitive and it shouldn’t be regarded as ‘default’.

1 Like
6

Don’t change default behaviors that can mess up things for millions of users.

Instead:
There could be a setting to set a default behavior. Some people want copy by default, some want move by default and even some others still want to have the dialogue popping up. It is not just about you and me, we should also think for people that are not participating here.

I think the context menu by default is a good thing for people which are not familiar with computers (or which just prefer the “old” behavior). People who come to forums to discuss that behavior are skilled enough to switch a drop down menu somewhere in system settings.

3 Likes
7

It only defaults to move on the same hard drive, otherwise it still prompts you. And I would argue that on the same drive it is fine

This is a great idea!

8

While this is controversial, there seems to be a general consensus, that deciding on a behaviour could be added to the onboarding experience/installer.

Where could one propose such a change? VDG? Usability? Is there an On-Boarding team?

9

We really are in a very Windowsy mindset here aren’t we?

Overall I enjoyed your comment, but this line troubles me… you missed something.

To suggest that the context menu is only a good thing for people not familiar with computers is frankly condescending and actually offensive (don’t worry, I’ve a thick skin).

After having used a 16-bit Commodore Pet, it’s been a long road.

You do know that you can drag an image to desktop and select ‘Wallpaper’… I was just remembering that I can drag my ‘shortcut.txt’ to the desktop as a Sticky Note or a Launcher…

If you have a ‘hard drive’ with C and D partitions, then the file will only ‘move’ on the same partition, not the same hard drive. Perhaps thinking of it more as a ‘domain’ makes life easier - or is that too abstract?

These details are incredibly important, and making blunders like referring to ‘same hard drive’ is serious.

This argument is missing some detail:

The definition of a “drive” in Linux is also much more nuanced with it’s unified filesystem hierarchy… so such behavior is not as intuitively clear as you are imagining.

This is why expecting Windows-like behaviour, or trying to make Linux function more like Windows, is problematic - because Linux is infinitely more flexible.

$HOME folders

If I edit a tune on my desktop and drag it to MUSIC, it should be MOVED there - right? but my ~/Music folder isn’t on the same physical drive…

Without such an overtly obvious warning, having a file in ~/Documents and dragging it to the other pane in Dolphin (instead of using Shift_F5 or Shift_F6) is still going to be a risky business; it’s why many people using computers always use pedantic, predictable, and familiar Ctrl_C or Ctrl_X and paste (or in my case, Shift with F5/F6).

If the other pane is sftp://server.com/home/user - the fact is, with a dual pane Dolphin, you’ll have to double check every time.

The UNIVERSAL caveat here is the role of Modifier keys.

These shouldn’t be abandoned or forgotten; which is why I say the Default should always be copy. The cursor usually gains a + icon (add a copy).

  • Ctrl_Drag forces a copy operation, the best default action.
  • Shift_Drag forces a move operation (deleting the original) whilst the cursor doesn’t change.
  • Ctrl_Shift dragging creates a link… and there are other options depending on where the file is dragged.

These facts are presented to anyone who has the bad habit of just LMB drag and drop.

If you want to MOVE, you should already know to hold SHIFT.

If you don’t, then that ‘annoying’ popup window TELLS you.

And stupid as it sounds, this is perfectly reasonable, and educational, helping people to learn, and discover… something sadly lacking in many modern UI’s.

Now tell me, what happens if you drag a text file to the desktop? what about an image? or a JSON, or an .exe?

Your inability to accurately answer these questions off the top of your head (without experimenting) demonstrates the need for the context menu.

If you have experience with computers, then you already know how to SHIFT_move, or CTRL_copy, or SH_CTL_link the file. This popup will not bother you… unless you’re a lazy user… but then you can get past it by learning.

Copy as default means you never learn, but it’s the only sane alternative.

What exceptions can be made for dragging to different locations? will exceptions be made where not only copy/move/link are options?

Take care not to Dumb the interface down and lose valuable function whilst focussing only on one aspect.

Linux is far more context aware than Windows. If you set DND to default to copy, then you’ll never discover the context aware alternatives…

And before you say it’s too much trouble, I never used my mouse (with my left hand) without also having my right hand on the keyboard - so please don’t try to tell me it’s too much trouble.

2 Likes
10

You missed my other point:

I wrote this, because it’s not just a beginners-thing and I think I am one of those who like “the old behavior” most. And btw I did not write “only”. :slight_smile:

1 Like
11

Same, it’s a failsafe for fallible people (so everyone). I know that I will perform unwanted operations with drag-to-move, and I have reasonable certainty that I will not perform unwanted operations with the context menu.

Often, instead of drag-to-move I do Ctrl+X -> Ctrl+V, which is an operation you can actually cancel at any time without consequence (just do not paste).

Consider also the case where instead of dragging a file to an empty space you drag to a folder when thinking about drag-to-move.

2 Likes
12

ok, you convinced me… this has happened too many times to count and being able to cancel out of the dialog is the only thing that saved me.

i change my vote back to status quo

4 Likes
13

I agree with you, copy is fine too. I personally deal with users who are parallelized or are missing arms. Using keyboard commands is not a option most of the time. And some are long term kde users. Giving them more work to find a setting to change it to what they want/need is also I feel personally unnecessary. Since there’s no place KDE posts these changes in a easy to look up way. When they have built or get a new system they would not be aware of the change. But this is just my take.

1 Like
14

Why not a simple ‘set as default’ or “always do this” sort of option in the popup itself? So, the first time someone sees it, the action can be set (or not) and the dialog is never seen again if a preferred action is chosen. No additions to make a first-run wizard any longer, and no hunting for a setting unless you want to change it back.

Hopefully adding only one or two lines to the existing dialog.

1 Like
15

So basically the ‘pop-up’ menu should never go away, but possibly have a direct ‘⛭ settings’ entry at the bottom so that folks can enter the rabbit hole of fine tuned settings…

As long as that menu is always accessible, either diretly or via Alt/Ctrl or something then we’re golden.

2 Likes
16

I’m personally a big fan of the chooser. I use the “move to” and “copy to” option about equally and the popup saves me time and effort. I love the way it is now. I hope that if it does get changed, they at least leave this as an option to enable in the settings or something.

3 Likes
17

I think it is a better idea to have a “settings” button on context menu which leads to the mouse settings. Otherwise we have the issue that people make a “choice”, realize they don’t like it and don’t know where to find the settings to reverse. It is an UX-issue other applications also have. It is no big deal if you have an easy to find settings-button with 5 options to select, but as more places of settings exist and as more options there are in, the more people have troubles to find it again.

Leading to settings give them a visual feedback how the settings menu looks like. They can even try out without closing that menu and so revert before decide finally. Especially for new users a huge win while no big deal for old users. In fact, that is the behavior I would expect when looking to all the other design language of KDE (right click here and there and always there is a button leading to a settings menu).

2 Likes
18

I vote for keeping the current popup the default. That way it’s clear what the drag&drop action will do.

Maybe it’s not so intuitive for people moving from windows, but I think it’s better for people who are new to computers in general - and that’s who I’d base the defaults on.

6 Likes
19

Don’t change it, the pop-up menu gives you a perfect choice of what you want to happen with the file/folder you picked up. This has been like this for many years, millions are used to it and sorry for new comers but you also have to get used to it. This is much better than a few new comers get what somebody here thinks they want and millions have to chance the way they have always worked.
Don’t change it.

6 Likes
20

They need to be optional, preferably preserving discoverability and easy reversibility. Such settings could prove very important for many niche cases - people with disabilities etc.

So default = popup
SHIFT to move
CTRL to copy.

Setting ‘default’ to ‘copy’ means:
Default=copy
Shift=move
Ctrl=popup menu.

Setting default to move on same domain:
Shift=Popup Menu
Ctrl=copy

Whichever way, when the Popup menu becomes annoying, it also tells you WHY, and how to avoid it (with an accelerator).
Perhaps Settings could go one step further than flagging non-default settings making them easy to ‘spot’ (sorry, couldn’t resist that)…

Perhaps a history.

3 Likes