Wine is essential for many of us

Wait what? You can’t install stuff via apt on Neon? I though it’s based on Ubuntu, I’m so confused now.

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It is possible, but Neon ships with newer libraries than Ubuntu so that the latest Plasma and KDE apps work, but that means the older apps which expect the older libraries will probably be broken. (At least that’s how I understood it, I’m not involved in Neon development)

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Maybe it’s time to quote from the Neon FAQ:

How do I Update to the Latest Software?

KDE neon does continuous deployment of the latest KDE software which means there are nearly always new versions of our software to update to. We recommend using Plasma Discover’s updater which appears in your panel:

If you prefer to use the command line you can use the pkcon command:

  • pkcon refresh
  • pkcon update

This will install all new packages and uses the same PackageKit code as Plasma Discover. Some uses of apt do not install new packages which makes it less suitable for KDE neon.

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Yes, usually it is has just been Wine from external addon repos (WineHQ), Ubuntu’s 32-bit wine packaging, and some Qt based software - likely most of it now, with the move to Qt6.

Actually it is, and I changed the webpage yesterday to say it. :slight_smile:

I agree, I prefer an approach that would have aptwarn the user that they’re about to enter “there be dragons” territory. And I would prefer even more an engineering effort to make this not be a problem in the first place so users can safely get software from the main repos.

Stay tuned.

That’s correct. Ironically non-KDE Qt software is the most likely to be broken as a result of having to upgrade the Qt stack potentially very aggressively and possibly not recompiling and re-patching every piece of non-KDE Qt software in the repo.

(and note that I’m also not a Neon developer; I’m just interested in improving quality throughout KDE)

It’s a very bold and manipulative claim to state “Snap and Flatpak are hated universally, without exception.” You live in a thought bubble that hates application packaging, okay, sure.

But here in the real world, I use Flatpak extensively, and it brings me great peace of mind and great quality of life. I’m really looking forward to when the Gear 6 applications start rolling out on Flathub.

That is sooo cool, you guys actually made changes and started up your own repos and starting pulling in packages?
Will apt be used to install from them?
Where can requests be made so packages like Wine and steam will be packaged on the KDE Neons repo?
What changes will you do to the kernel? (and what kernel?)
When will documentation be added? :slight_smile:
Will you have fixed point releases or rolling?

I’m confused…
All of that goes out the door now, you created a distribution right?
Why would it be “dragons” if only KDE Neon repos are used??

Because this is not the case: KDE neon still pulls the majority of (non-GUI-related) packages from the Ubuntu repos - including kernel, Mesa, linux-firmware, openssh-client, etc.
Others (partly non-essential for KDE Plasma) would be Samba, JRE/JDK, openssh-server, Apache, etc.
And those repositories also contain possibly incompatible software, like other Qt applications or WINE, or …

I sincerely doubt that KDE would have the money or the (wo)manpower (or will/goal) to become completely independent from a bigger distribution like Ubuntu or Fedora or openSUSE or … and their servers/packaging.
And I think that is a good thing (I don’t mean the lacking money or people here but considering the amount of work such an endeavour would require).

I would think of KDE neon more as a flavour/spin of Ubuntu (like LinuxMint or Zorin OS that also mainly use Ubuntu’s servers) than a “real” fork (like Ubuntu is one of Debian).
But those terms can be a bit vague or unprecise - I hope you know what I mean…

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Don’t Qt and KF5 have strict backwards compatibility rules?

So you mean it is more an Ubuntu LTS with a few packages, namely KDE and qt6?
Does that sound like a distribution to you?

To me it sounds just what I just typed, an Ununtu LTS with separate repos for KDE and qt6.

I 100% agree, but Neon is still not a distro in my eyes. xD

I do know what you mean.
But both mint and zorin does WAY more than just add a few things to a separate repo and call it a day. (so does KDE Neon, don’t get me wrong, I hope YOU know what I mean)

I understand, from reading some posts here and there about this that KDE Neon does not want to push users away, or loose them as you could also see it, but that is only connected to KDE neon, KDE as a whole would probably not be affected much since most of those users would move to a distro STILL using KDE.

The question is, what value does KDE Neon provide to KDE?

  • Is it actually the main feedback channel for bugs?
  • Is it actually used mainly by the developers? (ie is MOST development being made on KDE Neon and not on other distros?)
  • Is it mainly for USERS or DEVELOPERS?
  • Is KDE Neon the official KDE Distribution?
  • Is KDE Neon supposed to be used as a daily driver?

I have seen very inconsistent opinions from different KDE members, witch is fine, but a consensus should probably be met OR KDE Neon should be separated to a completely different bugtracker.

Quite OT now:

And that is exactly one of the reasons why I wouldn’t recommend KDE neon to anyone other than e.g. people who want to have a quick look at the state of “KDE things” without using neon as a daily driver or people who really know what they are getting into (and can handle it).
The website (and general self-promotion of KDE neon) still does not help that much in the latter regard - I think it is still not openly honest enough.

Good catch, I forgot that, I’ll add that to the points above.

I really think this should be discussed elsewhere - otherwise a lot of thoughts could be overlooked by others due to being in the wrong thread.

Perhaps here?

Because that’s what it is all about - no matter what the targeted type of end-user may be…

KDE Neon distributes Linux™️ so it very much IS a distribution. It doesn’t matter how it does it. Now if it’s a good/well-thought/working as intended/properly maintained one is another subject.


While I do think Neon is a distro, according to your logic every download mirror for ubuntu is a separate distro.

that is your logic, not mine :smile:

It might sound like a bit of a silly question, but… have you guys considered approaching it from the opposite direction? Like, isolating KDE software in flatpaks instead of isolating everything else? It seems to me that the requirement for newer versions of libraries would be a perfect use case for flatpak.

(I’m pretty sure it’s a silly question because there might be some technical reasons why it’s not a good idea.)

So the question is if it’s possible to have a whole Desktop Environment in flatpaks. To go a step further can X11 or wayland be in flatpaks and if so, what is the minimum amount of software that is required in order to have everything else in flatpaks? :slight_smile:

At the moment it’s not possible with Flatpak. It’s possible with Snap, though.

The thing is, let’s say you did do this, and all user-facing software was shipped as a Snap or a Flatpak–even Plasma itself and all the base libraries needed to run it.

What’s the base OS even still bringing to the table at that point? All it really needs to do is boot the system and load Snaps or Flatpaks. It would be an extremely minimal set of libraries, probably not even infeasible to just package it all yourself and not use any existing distro.

Such a distro would be very interesting. Radical, even.

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I could be wrong here, but isn’t Ubuntu Core trying to do this?

I can’t imagine the horrors in performance with everything KDE in snaps though :grin: