Wine is essential for many of us

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Wondering why Discover is not showing me the update for 6.0.1 I decided to run pkcon manually. For some reason, it now wants to remove Wine. All of it. So I backed out.

From a philosophical perspective, Wine is an essential app for a great many of us. It is what allows me to solo Linux without having to install Windows. Yet for some reason, Wine is a pain in the butt with Neon.

I know the Neon devs are busy with Neony things, but somehow we need to convince you that Wine is an important component that cannot be broken with a simple “oh well shrug”.

I do not want to install snaps or flatpacks. Both are IMO terrible solutions that just becomes an OS within an OS. They are redundant, buggy, slow, and bloat filled. Layers on top of layers. All they do is create more to manage.

I do not want to install a VM with Windows. I do not want to deal with Windows, period.

What I would like is for Wine to install properly, and easily, in Neon, and for updates to ensure it does not break Wine. If I were a competent devloper, I would be happy to offer my services. Sadly, I am not. All I can do is plead my case and beg you all to make Wine a serious consideration and to try to get it sorted.

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It isn’t there just yet.

And always will be, unfortunately. That isn’t going to change, and will continue to happen. If a system-installed Wine is that much of an important part of your workflow, then neon might be a good choice.

Actually, using flatpak for wine is not bloated, as it is not tied to any single desktop environment type it GUI tooklit, which is where the ‘bloat’ comes from.
It actually is a very good use case for flatpak usage here, since it will include ALL the 32-bit libraries needed, without involving or touching your system libraries, or require the 32-bit and 64-bit packaging have the same identical versions (as Debian packaging requires). It stays the same through system updates and upgrades.

It is what I use when the (rare) occasion arises that need something that won’t run otherwise elsewhere, and Bottles is even better if one has a lot of different application that all need different wine configurations to work.

I sort of wish wine’s packaging could be separated into 64 and 32 bit support as options via meta-packages, I wonder exactly how many non-game applications actually need 32-bit these days.

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You make some good points. You are a good salesman claydoh. You have convinced me that if I have to use a flatpack (ugh) then that is what I shall do. Hopefully we will find ways to work around it instead.

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It is definitely worth trying, and being self-contained and with minimal “bloat” it is a good option to look at. And an easy one to try that won’t break things.

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Then I think Neon isn’t the right distro for you, because these are the only supported methods for downloading user software. Using apt for it is not supported.

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Slightly OT:

@ngraham This is very important information!

Not for any user software?
Not even for KDE applications like e.g. Filelight, KColorChooser or Yakuake ?

Either way - perhaps I have been blind the whole time (I apologize, if this is the case), but this should be communicated at a very prominent position!
Preferably in bold letters directly at the top or next to the download button for the user edition.
Please don’t hide it in the middle of the FAQ - I suppose 98,75% of the people who want to download KDE neon for a run-of-the-mill desktop installation will not find/read it there…

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Only KDE software, I believe.

it definitely needs to be communicated better. See ⚓ T13500 Don't let users install outdated non-KDE apps in Neon. My preference would be for apt itself to either prevent it, or at least warn you in huge red text that you’re entering “there be dragons” territory.

I can also submit an MR to put this info on the website. Once my other ones are merged, that is, to avoid conflicts and excessive drama. :slight_smile:

But really, this shouldn’t have to happen in the first place. It’s only needed because the base OS becomes fragile as a result of all the libraries that have to be upgraded to support newer KDE packages that are overlayed on top. It’s not actually an LTS OS base anymore. If the base were something more recent, like Arch or Fedora, it would all be a non-issue.

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If this is true then I have to ask… did you guys ask any of us actual users what we want? If its not for me, then who is it for? Because I can tell you that out here in userland… snap and flatpack are universally hated, almost without exception. It surprises me the devs have not noticed that.

It bares reminding that most of us use Linux because we want to maintain control over how software behaves on the hardware we own. I do not want an OS within an OS. Nobody I interact with wants it.

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Respectfully, that doesn’t make much sense in the free software world.

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You lost me. What doesn’t?

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The things you wrote. KDE Neon is just a stupid distro among hundrends of other distro. You can just pick some other which has everything you need and want.

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So, are you saying we cannot give input into the direction our chosen distro takes? Just take what ever **** you want to shovel at us? You think this is free? You think the time and effort that I have had to put into making this work, and doing what I can to help others make it work, has no value? Are you kidding me?

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Correction, it is NOT a distribution.

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Even better! It’s just astupid repo on top of ubuntu, which just breaks ubuntu’s stuff. Maybe it’s better for people to use a proper distro instead.

Thanks for correcting me! :slight_smile:

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LMAO, well, hmm… :thinking:
Maybe not use those EXACT words to describe neon on the webpage. :sweat_smile:

Not at all.
You can try to push a project in your desired direction, usually by contributing code and/or talking constructively to the rest of the community.

But generally, it is up to YOU to find out what the project already is before trying to implement changes or you will just run face first into a wall.

A drastic example would be if I joined a project that makes an emulator for playstation to run on linux. I then start to ask them to also port it to windows, and also include xbox games.

What you are asking here is a really big thing, it would take a LOT of work to implement and keep it working.

Pretty much yeah, YOU decided to use Neon, there are TONS of other distributions out there most of them working fine with KDE and plasma 6.

The work you have put into your system has value TO YOU, that’s what you have to grasp.
You seem to miss the whole “community” part.
Your help is absolutely appreciated!
Here, have a hug and a thank you. :hugs:

Everything KDE is COMMUNITY DRIVEN. You can NEVER expect or “demand” ANYTHING, not even if you donate money to them.

I see and can to some extent understand your frustration.
But almost all of it is due to lack of knowledge.
I’m sorry if that hurts.

Edit
@ngraham I’m not going to intervene in the conversation on Phabricator, but I will shime in my 2 cents here.
I don’t think hiding things from users is ever a good approach, that feels like patronizing.
A better approach is to steadily INFORM the user.
If the userbase is ill informed, do not pat them on the head, educate them. :heart: :nerd_face:
But for that, documentation is needed = lots of work.

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Don’t. Don’t pretend to speak for “us”. There’s no us. That’s just you.

You’re saying this to the volunteers who wrote the software that you’re just using for free. This is like throwing a fit and screaming your lungs out in front of the ice cream truck that gave you free ice cream because you think they owe you sh*t because shoveling the free ice cream into your mouth took such time and effort.

Is that what you’re doing though, giving input? You’re just being an entitled little sh*t.

The beauty of linux is that no, you don’t have to take anything. There’s hundreds of distros. Find one that’s to your liking instead of being an a**hole in the support forum of a distro that isn’t.

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Ok ok, calm down.
This discussion could actually lead to some good interactions, lets not escalate it ok. :heart:
Let’s give OP some time to breathe and calm down first and see the response.

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OT:

Not true as far as I am able to tell.

Because most of the “average Joe”-users I know “out here in userland” (both in private and professional settings) don’t even know what Flatpaks and Snaps are - or simply don’t care.
And none of the “average Joe”-users I know visits or writes in Linux forums, so their voices are not heard at all. Those “average Joe”-users might be the silent majority. :wink:

Slightly exaggerated:
these are consequences of bringing Linux to the “masses”, sometimes the “average Windows” user might not be that different from many of the “average Linux” users: the computer (-system) is just a tool like a washing machine.

That said: a good deal of them won’t probably use KDE neon anyway…

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I can only vouche for flatpak, because that is the only one I have used, and it’s great, in some situations.

If I can not find a program in my repos, lets say spotify, works flawlessly to use the flatpak.

The other week, I HAD to be present in an online meeting, and they use zoom. God damn it, I have to move my ass to somewhere I have access to a windows computer or install a whole VM, OR I could use flatpak, so I did.
Had the meeting, removed the flatpak and not a trace was left on my system.

But for Neon since it’s more or less just a repo with kde and qt6, and using ubuntus repos seems to be adviced against, it mean every single app (outside KDE apps) should be installed using snap or flatpak.
Also one of the reasons I would never even consider using Neon, but that is MY preference.

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munches on popcorn … well look at all the butt hurt. :smiley: