Which is a big problem. As a distro, Neon isn’t big enough that users can rely on official KDE Neon repositories via pkcon or Discover to cover all of their software needs - Point in case is this very thread we’re replying to, and this thread..
However, I’m not looking for an argument, and I’m certainly not on some silly crusade. I just feel that in certain situations criticism needs to be voiced and aimed in the right direction.
I’ve said what I want to say and hold absolutely no grudges, peace all.
I think the TL;DR here is that you think the LTS base is an implementation detail, and shouldn’t be used as a marketing bullet point about stability. And I agree you, which is why I changed around the Neon website to no longer do that.
The only case I can see on the website where it could be still be considered even slightly misleading is where it says “The latest and greatest of KDE community software packaged on a rock-solid base”. Is that what you’re specifically referring to? Or is it something else?
The problem with the LTS semi-rolling model is that the moment a library is upgraded to support a newer program (and not only -security updates, backports-), the term “rock-solid” ceases to exist, since the 1st step entering the Frankenstein realm has just been made
Basically the modern “LTS” model -which was not designed/engineered around upgrading packages, but is forced to nowadays- is not as stable and rock-solid as people believe or read, it rolls as well but in a bad way.
It’s interesting to see how thing are perceived differently. That sentence is why I decided to use Neon, and feel I’ve gotten exactly what I expected. KDE/Qt stuff breaks every once in a while, I’d rather it didn’t but I knew I was talking that risk. But on the flip side, the base system is stable and I’ve never had a kernel panic or ever gotten it in a state where it didn’t boot into a terminal where I could easily fix things. To me that’s a solid base (but I’m old enough to remember logging in on a terminal and running ‘startx’).
But if your perception of ‘stable base’ is always getting a working DE I can see how Neon might not be what you expected.
After catching up on the additions to this thread, I am disappointed as well by the change to the description. It suggests a change in philosophy which sadly runs contrary to the reason I have been happily loving Neon these past few years. If Neon has indeed simply become a play box for neon devs and cannot be relied upon, it suddenly becomes very concerning.
I have no interest in moving to a new distro, but I cannot support what appears to be a nonchalant “take it or leave it, go somewhere else if you don’t like it” attitude that has been expressed a couple of times in this thread. There is no place for that mentality anywhere.
To be completely honest, that’s what it has been for quite some time (maybe since its inception?), and most devs inside KDE have long understood this. It’s not reasonable to expect users to also have this information, so the the new messaging aimed at them simply reflects long-running reality, not some major recent shift.
Changing the reasons why Neon is in this state is an extremely complex task and no one can guarantee will happen quickly, if at all. It’s for that reason that I decided to re-align the messaging with reality in advance of the reality being improved.
If you want to use latest wine with all new fixes and features without degradation in performance from any ambiguous/unnecessary packaging form like Flatpak or Snap, then use a pure rolling release distro.
This is the main reason Valve ditched Debian for Archlinux for its Steam Deck, to push fast updates on top of latest drivers and system/desktop libraries. Plus, Archlinux is not backed or controlled for its future decisions by any commercial company from the shadows.
Having been a user since its beginning, I understood this. The original FAQ never really stated much about it being anything in particular, though. However, some things have taken on a life of their own.
Thank you for both editing the FAQ (something I really should have suggested a long time ago), and for your positive attitude, which helps keep us from getting things out of hand.
Thanks Nate. I will confess I am disappointed. I have been such a strong advocate of Neon everywhere I go, but now I feel like I have wasted years of my life and have mislead so many people about what this is. Its like a punch in the gut.
I think there’s a lot of confusion about the meanings of many words - like ‘Stable’ and ‘LTS’… Perhaps confusion arises when statements like ‘BASED ON… LTS’ are used.
This is actually something I had to learn about Linux Mint… based on an LTS for which some newer PPA repos weren’t suitable (meaning issues with finding ways to install software).
I’m confident that KDE Neon is NOT an LTS release.
Neon is loudly touted as ‘packaging the hottest software fresh from KDE the moment it’s released’ - and so can never be defined as an LTS or even a ‘stable’ distribution per se.
It is BASED on Ubuntu LTS. It is not Ubuntu LTS.
Kubuntu also offers a non-LTS edition as well…
For stability, the trend is more towards an immutable style ‘base’ - and this means that in order to install new software, you should be in favour of using Flatpaks… otherwise people often migrate towards ‘rolling’ which by definition is not stable (though my desktop has proved stable for 6 years because it gets the attention it needs, and incremental updates installed sometimes more than once every week).
There’s no ‘punch in the gut’ here - simply a miscomprehension.
This was the neon’s site description, on 2019, when I first installed it:
More than ever people expect a stable desktop with cutting-edge features, all in a package which is easy to use and ready to make their own.
KDE neon is the intersection of these needs using a stable Ubuntu long-term release as its core, packaging the hottest software fresh from the KDE Community ovens. Compute knowing you have a solid foundation and enjoy the features you experience in the world’s most customisable desktop.
You should use KDE neon if you want the latest and greatest from the KDE community but the safety and stability of a Long Term Support release. When you don’t want to worry about strange core mechanics and just get things done with the latest features. When you want your computer as your tool, something that belongs to you, that you can trust and that delivers day after day, week after week, year after year. Here it is: now get stuff done.
disclaimer: bolds added by me
You can access it on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine:
I don’t want to stretch this more. I get the current stance, I just shared it feels like a punch on the gut after heralding neon to so many people for some years.
No, I do understand. I never read that - but I do find it to be a little misleading…
Again, it’s a problem mostly with the Language. You have to decide whether it’s being used strictly according to Technical definitions, Generally understood definitions, or simply Advertising Blurb.
This kind of text is one reason I wouldn’t take Neon as a serious option for a working machine.
I’m a little surprised that it doesn’t emphasise ‘experimental’ and risks of instability that comes with ‘fresh and hot’ stuff. Manjaro forums are ripe with discussions - people excited to go to Plasma 6 and people EVEN NOW who are testing plasma 6 in VM’s, but still holding on to Plasma 5 for their working machine.
We wouldn’t regard Neon as ‘stable’…
Experience taught me that ‘hottest fresh’ is what I get with Manjaro (rolling) which requires some care, attention when updating, pre-emptive problem solving. You don’t expect Neon to be like that - but several times Neon had issues which our ‘unstable’ branch did not face.
Today I had to rebuild 3 AUR packages for them to work again after a python upgrade, following instructions from the update thread… I take such maintenance as a very minor inconvenience - I get a different kind of ‘stable’ than Kubuntu, or Linux Mint for example.
What kind of support for NVIDIA graphics cards does Neon offer?
KDE neon supports the open-source Nouveau driver only, which should suffice for normal hardware-accelerated desktop use. The proprietary driver is not supported at all, and we recommend against trying to install it anyway. It may work or it may not, and either way you’ll be in “there be dragons” territory. If you find yourself tempted to ignore this advice, then neon may not be the right choice for you, and we instead recommend selecting a different distro.
So now KDE Neon doesn’t even support Nvidia proprietary hardware/drivers, and should you add the official Launchpad PPA “There be Dragons!” - A change made to the KDE Neon FAQ after March 27 2024, well after Feb 2024 when Plasma 6 was officially released.
See:
Vs:
This would have been information that would have been really useful when I had to reinstall KDE Neon from scratch after the debacle that was the unsuspecting upgrade from KDE Neon 5.27 to KDE 6.0.0 - Had I known the true ‘extent’ of KDE Neon purely as a development platform for KDE devs, there’s absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I would have chosen a different distro. Now I’m stuck using a distro (obviously nothing more than a testing platform considering the sharp change in direction since 2019, which was the last time I actually had a need to read the homepage and FAQ) that carefully tries to sell a lack of stability and LTS incompatibility as ‘features’ while using myself as no more than fodder should things go wrong.
Honestly…The term “Punch to the gut” only begins to describe my very bitter disappointment regarding the current direction of KDE Neon. I rightfully feel like someone’s pulled quite the ‘swifty’. I guess I’m stuck in such a predicament until those Dragons eventually surface, especially considering I’m an Nvidia user (or is that: “Nvidiarghhh”, as quoted by a certain KDE developer).
I certainly won’t be getting burnt twice by the same flame next install.
I completely understand your reaction. The thing is, there really was no change in direction; the old marketing copy on the website was always grossly misleading. What changed recently was to make the marketing reflect reality better–the reality of today as well as the reality of 5 years ago.
Now, I think you and I would both prefer the reality to be changed rather than what seems like admitting defeat by changing the text. There are some interesting initiatives going on internally right now that might be just what’s needed. Nothing ready for announcing yet, but stay tuned…
Nate, with all respect: People still argue that KDE Neon is strictly an LTS release; following the LTS philosophy of security, stability and compatibility with Canonical repo software, and software installed using apt as opposed to pkcon.
In many ways, the use of word salad on the FAQ page makes things just as confusing as not stating the reality regarding the direction of KDE Neon from the (apparent) onset.
The reality is: there’s no such thing as an ‘LTS semi rolling release’, as the base was never designed/engineered around upgraded packages outside of simple security backports.
KDE Devs need to be crystal clear about this point on the front page without the use of manipulative terms and phrases. I’d go as far as to state that the term LTS really shouldn’t be used at all, as you can’t be part Ubuntu LTS.
