Does Wayland really break everything?

I’ve written some other posts on Wayland recently, and it’s time for another one! Feel free to skip it it you aren’t interested in a discussion of Wayland and platforms.


This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://pointieststick.com/2023/12/26/does-wayland-really-break-everything/
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On Wayland, even a simple high quality recording of the screen seems impossible… Spectacle crashes, OBS produces blurry output, for now only vokoscreenNG produces a decent result…

Hi,

No issue with obs for the live streaming for months now
cpu && gpu intel for the server…

https://www.youtube.com/@HomeWebServer/streams
setting with 2 fps, lol

I did a test a few weeks ago with video game (steam + ProtonDB) absolute no issue
cpu && gpu intel for my laptop…

But issue with vnc like krfb on wayland :-/

Is rdp the solution for vnc ?

Firefox 121 is working like a charm on wayland

libreoffice still, vsc code … are the main soft I use, so far they are running fine on wayland.

In one sentence, congratulation to the devs for their hard and good work.

Edit 1 : arm devices are wayland capable too.

Edit 2 :
Operating System: Linux
KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10
KDE Frameworks Version: 5.113.0
Qt Version: 5.15.11
Kernel Version: 6.6.8-2 (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: Wayland
Processors: 8 × Intel® Core™ i7-10510U CPU @ 1.80GHz
Graphics Processor: Mesa Intel® UHD Graphics

Edit 3 : OBS studio doesn’t run on arm (start and crash), wayland or x11 tested.

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Well, in my experience, yes it does. Even if my perspective change, things remain broken.

Linux is not a replacement for Windows.

Okay.

Wayland is not a drop-in replacement for X11.

¿Really? Well, maybe it should have been!

Because unlike the Linux vs Windows figure, Wayland indeed was intended to replace X11 from the beginning, and now it has taken over a decade, and it still doesn’t have any important advantage over x11 other than “the future”, which admittedly is a damn good argument. But still, it came with a lot of massive problems, and no, perspective has never been one of them, so let’s try to stop denying reality with cheap PR.

There are valid concerns about Wayland, and they are taking way too long to be addressed, now that’s the real issue, because the Linux graphic stack needed Wayland yesterday, not tomorrow.

And why is it taking this long?

Well, that’s another sub-problem.

Remember what X11 was created for. It was a means of allowing a dumb terminal to display the screen from a main-frame computer across a network. One of the main reasons to get rid of this is network security.

This is not painless, nor quick, but I am amazed at the speed this is going. It is still much faster than I had expected.

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I don’t disagree with this, and had I been around as a decision-maker back in the mid 2000s when Wayland was first being conceived of, I’d like to think I would have advocated for this position as well. I agree that not being a drop-in replacement has been the biggest thing hurting adoption, and it’s why the transition has taken more than 15 years with a lot of dirty laundry aired in public.

But that’s not the way things ended up happening. We have to deal with the situation we have today, not the one we wish it was had different decisions been made in the past.

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You are absolutely right - but this does not keep me from using X11 as long as things like “remembering the window positions” and many others don’t work in Wayland.

Fortunately I don’t have to take security into account too much for my X11 use cases.

Not true. Wayland vs X11 is currently a trade of a pack of issues over another pack of issues. The difference is that one has them being solved and one doesn’t.

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The reason why you mostly don’t have to consider security yourself while having a decently secure system is that there are tons of engineers doing it for you constantly. And closing the security holes of X11 by abandoning it - is part of that process. One that is less smooth for users because of just how problematic X is and its usage patterns were.

And that’s totally fine. FWIW it’s something I miss on Wayland too–but only a little bit, because IMO only KXMLGUI-using KDE apps do the position-remembering-on-x11 thing properly, and that’s because I wrote the implementation so of course it conforms to my opinion of how it should work, and I refined it over multiple years in response to numerous bug reports about edge cases.

But the fact that it had to be done this way illustrates the problem: every other app on X11 that doesn’t use KDE Frameworks either doesn’t do position remembering at all, or does it in a way that behaves differently with multiple monitor setups or has weird bugs that the KDE implementation doesn’t have.

What we really need is for KWin to do it for all windows, with a single central implementation that can always work, can take into account multi-screen setups properly, can affect all windows, can be turned off universally if you don’t like it, etc. See 15329 – Save and remember positions of all windows.

IMO that would be a really killer KWin Wayland feature.

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Indeed this is what I disliked about it when I tried it out, the monitor lottery I call it. Which one will it start on this time is what I got to thinking about it. A lot of the time it was on the large TV monitor I keep off when not watching videos in my three monitor setup, X11 for all its haters does it perfectly and starts them where last opened and displayed. And videos now I think about trying to figure out if VLC was actually going to display any video output when using that Wayland as well, again X11 does it flawlessly. And now I do not even need to go edit the Xorg.conf by hand anymore to get the layout I want just a little drag n’ drop and les voilà it is done. I had developed a rather good understanding of it and getting it done was rather simple once you could read the logs properly to do it.

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It has come a long way. I remember when the only way to do it was editing the file. For the newbie it was a nightmare. :fearful:

Oh yeah it was a fun time until I figured it out. It was still Xfree86 back when I first started to use Linux in 1999. And I always had at least dual setup, one to watch videos on and the desktop to use if I wanted at the same time. Perhaps you benefited from my experience if on one the various Linux forums I do not know how many setups I got working for people when answering their cries for help, hundreds guaranteed perhaps in the thousands… All I know is I am in the many tens of thousands of answers on forums, maybe even a hundred thousand questions answered, who knows never added them all up.

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And isn’t it a nice thing that on Wayland, none of that is needed anymore. :slight_smile: Multi-monitor works much better already, and it’s gotten a huge shot in the arm for Plasma 6. I’m actually using a multi-monitor setup regularly right now whereas on Plasma 5, it was never stable enough for me to feel like like it was adding more than it took away in the form of bugginess and unpredictability.

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It has been some time since I tried the Wayland but my experience with it then was enough to sour me on bothering with the attempt to use it until absolutely necessary. Perhaps by then they will have worked out all the problems I had with it. Now this was on the Plasma 5 as I have not tried the 6 at all. The improvements you guys made to the 5 with the X11 have made it rock solid with my multi setup and it was not that bad as it was without them. I like current KDE so much I am unlikely to upgrade for the next few years if it continues to work well and does not become a security hazard. I am shooting for 2027 when the now current LTS support runs out. I have been using it since the pre 1.0 days on at that time Redhat 5.2, never could get to like the Gnome they push.

All I got to say is…

Image that says Works on my machine in a yellow golden sticker

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Who knows perhaps it will work on my machine now too, perhaps some day I build a bridge to get over it and try again. But I tend to take things that affect me personally, personally. When I get such a negative experience it is hard to change my mind about it until some positive has been built back to regain the trust. Like my experience with that piece of garbage pulse audio. With it enabled on my machine within seconds of playing a video a hard lock requiring a power button push to cycle the machine. Audio files get through a couple of songs then it happened too. Pipewire-pulse, the replacement for the junk, it has worked flawlessly from the first time I installed it to this very day not one single solitary problem. Except now it comes to mind having said that for its tendency to disable the sound in Microsoft Edge from time to time. Which I use as my virgin browser with no extensions installed to get to websites that require all their java script trash to function. Like a couple of my credit card companies we sites. I tend to take the negative experience of the script enabled sites causing high loads on my machine personally as well and that ads everywhere trash that usually accompanies it well…

I think the official release of Plasma 6.0 or 6.1 would be a good time to do so.
At least I will (again) as one can easily switch back to X11 when something is too annoying. :wink:
Thanks to all KDE devs for further supporting X11, btw!

At first → ??? :face_vomiting:

But, on searching – yes, there are .deb and .rpm packages for Edge available from Microsoft repositories and, a “Business” edition as well – simply search for “Linux version Microsoft Edge” …


But, why not simply install the “chromium” package from your distribution’s repositories?

  • Or, do your Bank / Credit Card web servers also reject that Alphabet/Google product due to “not executing on a Pocket Telephone”?

I am sure you have experienced, the “this site requires…” moron web design many times if you have been alive and using the internet for any period of time. It is the best option I could find to use with them. Never thought to try the chromium as I seldom use Chrome to browse the web either. It has been Firefox for me ever since they started it all those many moons ago, so long I forget the original name of it before the change ATM. Despite all the haters of it now it works for me and always has except for the broken by design websites and frankly they can take their content and stick it if they cannot follow good design. I sure as hell better need to use it to go out of my way to see it.

Edit: what is with the quote posting not working today, it worked yesterday for me.